whats the ruling???

[hbk]

approx 12 players left.
6 handed at my table.
blinds 700 - 1500.
i had dropped to about 10k, but managed to build to 17k, i had shoved all in a few times (with good hands of course), and had gotten myself sort of back into the game.
i'm utg and have A10 off,
all cards are dealt and bb (regular player for past few years) is not in his seat, and wasn't before hands were dealt, i shove all in for 17k.
utg plus 1 also shoves all in for about 45k.
all hands folded round as bb returns.
prior to looking at his hand or sitting in his seat he asks 'are my cards dead?'
i replied 'probably, yea'.
button responds 'sure play them if you want'.
bb replies 'sure i'll have a look.....ohhhhh, i'd really like to play this hand, how much is the all in for?'.
utg plus 1 counts his stack and says, '45k'.
bb counts his stack and realises if he calls and loses he still has approx 20k left.
bb asks td, 'i was in the toilet, can i play these cards?'
td says 'whatever ye think'.
bb calls with kk and wins, knocking out 2 players(utg plus 1 had aq off).

my opinion:
bb not in his seat (or even in the room) when his 2nd card is dealt so automaticly his cards are mucked.(plus the fact there was already action around the table before he returned).

am i wrong to question this?

any one elses opinion?

[theblackthing]

Where was I when all this was going on? It's the first I've heard of it.


Not sure who the BB was Joe but as far as I'm concerned the hand is definitely dead. Rules vary from house to house as regards been at your seat when the hand is dealt.

I'm not sue which of these we use but its definitely one out of the two following

(A) you have to be at your seat when the dealer deals your 2nd card.

or

(B) you have to be at your seat when the dealer deals the 2nd card to the 1st player.


If the BB plays here regularly he should know himself that his hand is dead and shouldn't even call the TD for a ruling imho.

I'm constantly leaving the table to go for a smoke and I wouldn't even consider asking for a ruling if both my cards had been dealt.

[hbk]

theblackthing
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[ Exalt | Smite ] Re: whats the ruling???
« Reply #1 Today at 18:31 »

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Where was I when all this was going on? It's the first I've heard of it.


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i held my tounge because utg plus 1 would have knocked me out anyway,
but a similar situation happened in castlebar a few weeks ago at the bruce poker and the bb got a 10 minute penalty for demanding to play his hand when he returned.

[bobflatley]

I was under the impression that the hand would be dead. As rules vary I suppose u have to go with the TD ruling (which as I recall was 'the cards are there so if no-one has any objections...') Anyway there weren't any objections except mainly from the BB player who didn't really seem to know what to do, in fairness.

Anyone consider this an angleshoot from a player who should know that the general standing rule in that game is/used to be a muck? (I post '/used to' as the TD is in charge and didn't actually rule out the play) For the record I think the TD should have ruled a force muck.

[philivey]

there's only one answer to that an its simple. The person who had left the table shouldn't have even seen they're cards never mind been allowed to play them!!!!

[philivey]

hbk i don't know who it was against but i'm guessing it was a newbee cause none of the regulars would do that. i'm only playin a few months an i wouldn't do it!!!! By any chance was it the new guy from commemara (Cathal}? He might not know the rules!!!!

[theblackthing]

No I doubt it's Cathal because Joe said it's somebody who has been playing with us for a few years, plus from what I've seen of Cathal so far, he has been playing poker for some time.

I'm going to have to be careful here because chances are the BB is a good friend of mine. I think angleshooting is perhaps too strong a word, but I will say that in a friendly pub game like we have that it was ungentlemanly to ask for the ruling.

Having said that, I can't understand why Muscles didn't declare the hand dead. I'm not having a go at anyone, just giving my opinion.

[bobflatley]

It's certainly an angleshoot though not intentional. Anyway might as well hold me hands up and admit to this before it goes on too long.
It was mostly just one of those things that happens step by step and next thing you know the hand is over. Generally I refuse to look at hands when I'm returning and I can't really say why this time was different. Anyway it all works out as bad etiquette but what's done is done. Apologies all round and I'll eagerly await the backlash

[nutboy]

now bob what part was not intentional u know the rules all too well.angleshooting is ur word for it i know another word for it.eamonn sat on the fence on this one a bit but if u tried it on him or 99% of other players ud know very quickly bout the rule.lesson learned i hope.id say enda might have let u off with it this is how games become unfriendly

[muscles]

Spent the last half hour replying to all this and then deleted the lot. I've had a hassly night with the Kiltimagh tournament. Not with the players or anything but some lads get carried away with a cute young blond who played them to a tee. Flash a pair of tits and...oh never mind. As for what Dodge was snorting up his nose Snuff said.

Anyway back to the issue. It all boils down to a simple question. In a strict technical sense the ruling i made last night was wrong but in the spirit of this particular tournament and the way things have been going i thought it was the fairest ruleand one that seems to have been generally accepted over the months. . Obviously not as it turns out. Fair enough, but it begs the question... is it a friendly home game among a few mates or a a proper poker tournament??

Imo it seems to have been veering towards the former in recent times much to my frustartion. I won't have much time online over the weekend but i'll try and explain what i mean in a meaningiful post when i get the chance.

[hbk]

my say...

bb in his position:

utg call 1500 or possible raise to 5k,
utg plus 1 reraise,
bb reraise (possible all in),
utg folds (tourney life still alive),
utg plus 1 has a decision to make.

actual play:

after playing the last few years i feel i have improved through experience,

i feel very hard done by as now BOTH bb and td have admitted an error, apologised and yet i assume this still does not change my position in the league.

i didn't feel the need to involve the td at the time as when the bb returned he asked the question of the table 'are my cards dead? ' to which i replied 'probably...yea', why ask the question if your not gonna listen to the answer?

it certainly is a "friendly home game among a few mates", but its not free and every night i play, as far as i'm concerned its "a proper poker tournament", i play by the rules, i never rabbit hunt, angleshoot or slowroll and even though i knew the tds ruling was wrong i accepted it because the rules state quiet clearly...td has the final say, (even though in this case it was the bb).

i'm not one to cause contraversy,

i accept both appoliges and accept 4th position in the league, only on the basis my conditions are carried out:

1. a list of house rules are put in place and displayed each night to avoid any other situations.

2. i want the name, address and phone number of the cute young blonde who played the kilti
boys to a tee and flashed her tits and i want her to play (free of charge) this thursday night
in hanleys.

i await a response.................

[grattan23]

I do believe we had this same scenario about 18 months ago, when I shoved because I knew the BB was gone. Someone else at the table delayed, and BB returns and plays his hand and knocks me out with my 2 3 off. I did question it at the time and was told it was a friendly game, I took this in my ususal jovial way for f--- sake, rules are rules, to be told that it would be implemented from now on. Guess who the player involved was answers on a postcard please to :

Bury those cards or I'll Bury You
I know I Shouldn't play them
Oh your posting again must be controversy
It's a friendly game
Your all friends
TD says I can

[hbk]

May 30, 2009 10:35:32 GMT grattan23 said:

I do believe we had this same scenario about 18 months ago, when I shoved because I knew the BB was gone. Someone else at the table delayed, and BB returns and plays his hand and knocks me out with my 2 3 off. I did question it at the time and was told it was a friendly game, I took this in my ususal jovial way for f--- sake, rules are rules, to be told that it would be implemented from now on. Guess who the player involved was answers on a postcard please to :

Bury those cards or I'll Bury You
I know I Shouldn't play them
Oh your posting again must be controversy
It's a friendly game
Your all friends
TD says I can

the last line of this letter wouldn't be....


KNOCK?


i believe i was at the table that night and you weren't too happy,
can't find what you had posted here about it.

can ya remember what rule would be implemented??

[grattan23]

Cards to be mucked if player not at table, when his / her last card is dealt

[muscles]

May 30, 2009 5:36:41 GMT hbk said:

1. a list of house rules are put in place and displayed each night to avoid any other situations.

In fairness i must have used up half a rain forest printing copies of rules and leaving them around the place but to my knowledge, not one copy was ever taken away. From my experience most players don't give a toss about rules unless they are involved in a situation and then they demand i quote chapter and verse.